Lisbon Treaty effects will benefit all of us
IT WAS sad to see so many people in Britain clinging to the hope that a lone right-wing politician in a small eastern European country would block a treaty that was signed two years ago by the democratically elected heads of every European Union state.
The Lisbon Treaty may not be a beautiful document, as critics have been ready to point out, but its effect will benefit us all.
It lays to rest the bogus spectre of the European superstate. There never was such a superstate, nor could there ever be.
More important, it contains long overdue provisions to update and simplify the machinery of a Europe which has grown from six members to 27.
It increases the powers of national parliaments and the European Parliament to scrutinise and modify legislation, and introduces the idea of a "citizens' petition".
The very critics who complain that the EU interferes too much in our daily lives also complain that on the world stage Europe is too weak.
The new President of the Council – not "President of Europe", as some have absurdly suggested – will give Europe a united voice when authorised to do so by heads of government, including our own.
The High Representative for Foreign Relations – not Foreign Minister, as there is no European Government – will help to implement foreign policy decisions taken in the Council.
The EU will now be more strongly placed to advance the interests of Europeans in a world where power counts. In the battles against climate change, globalisation, international crime and terrorism we need an EU that will stand up for our interests, and Lisbon is a step in the right direction.
Malcolm Bower
Tamar Branch of the European Movement Gunnislake
Useless spare parts
WHY can we no longer buy elements for toasters? Why can't we buy elements for kettles? Headlamp bulbs, electrical plugs, power tool bushes?
Why have we allowed manufacturers to mollycoddle us out of these little DIY jobs and con us into throwing away otherwise perfectly serviceable appliances?
It all seemed to be over so quickly. Done and dusted. Was it really out of fear of liability and court action – that infectious disease that has crossed the Pond?
I have a garage full of no longer useable bits and pieces that I still feel reluctant to part with.
Maybe when there's a worldwide plague or war or famine, I'll dust them off. No, of course I'll no longer be here.
Derek Courtnell
Plymouth
Whose Navy is it?
DID you notice that a naval vessel in the Indian Ocean was said to be an European Union vessel? If this is so, what was it doing in the Indian Ocean?
The person interviewed about the possible sighting of a yacht thought to have been captured by pirates looked and sounded very British, and I suspect that this naval vessel is in fact part of the Royal Navy.
I did not know the states forming the so-called EU had a "navy". If the vessel if British, is the EU paying appropriate hire charges for its use? It seems we have handed over government of the country to the EU, meaning that our defence forces are virtually out of control – but ministers will never admit this.
The next thing, already hinted at by Lord Mandelson, will be our currency, which would lead to another hike in inflation. It has been said often that EU membership means weekly household bills being £30 more than they would be otherwise, due to internal EU taxes.
It is not too late to regain our democratic rights and get out of the quasi-communist EU.
R Alder
Fife
Mindless vandalism
THE people of Bere Alston must have been in a state of shock on waking up last week to find all their vehicles damaged. The mindless toerags who caused all that damage ought, if caught, to be hung, drawn and quartered.
Of course, we mustn't do that to the little lambs – human rights will click in. They should at least, though, be sent to a boot camp run on the lines of 1950s-style National Service.
Oh, I forgot, they mustn't be shouted at too loudly for fear of stressing them out. What a shame. My age group had to go through it, and we hadn't done anything wrong – it was the norm at age 18 in those days.
Barry Thomas
Redruth
Careless God
THE Rev Colin Salter asks (letter, November 3) what will we say as God points out that we carelessly allowed millions of our fellow humans, whom he created, to starve?"
My reply to God would be: "You're not a very good parent, standing by and doing nothing as millions of your children died of starvation". I would also say: "Why do you stand by and do nothing as countless babies and children worldwide are brutally abused on a daily basis"?
Neil Kernick
Kingsteignton
15 Comments
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by ~Bill Roberts, Orpington
Wednesday, December 09 2009, 4:12PM
“Someone said on this page that prior to any referendum on staying in or out of the EU, we should have a thorough discussion about the pros and cons of membership.
I have tried to find such discussion and had hoped that the BBC might have made a few programmes on the subject dealing with the FACTS.
I don't remember seeing that thorough discussion.
There are plenty of people from both sides who spout meaningless statements such as 'our membership has prevented war' ; most of our trade is with the EU; we would lose 3 million jobs if we left the EU; the EU is democratic and so on.
These are all statements without examples or technical data backing them up.
The true facts are sometimes brought out by the Democracy Movement, UKIP and even the BNP with arguments but I haven't seen any answers from the pro EU side.
So come on Mr. Kennedy make with the facts, challenge the Anti-EU brigade with some factual arguments----with all the facts, not the tidied up versions.
For example, what part did NATO play in preventing war ?
How are our exports to the EU measured and how true are the figures (do they include final destination of product shipped from EU ports to the rest of the world other than the EU).
How much trade would we lose if we left the EU-----not how much in total we do with the EU.
Has our membership of the EU helped any of our industry, e.g. fishing, steel, coal, farming.
How much does it cost us to belong to the EU ? And have we got a cost benefit analysis that we can refer to.
Why was the truth about the loss of sovereignty covered up by all Governments after the Home Office report warned that membership of the EEC would mean that the UK would lose sovereignty.
I see I've only got another 3283 characters of space left, so I'll pack up now.”
by Charles Henry 1945-(diuturnity), Somersetshire
Thursday, November 12 2009, 5:45PM
“:( And Colin, don't say a word to Theo if you see him, or I'll never hear the last of it.”
by Charles, In the corner.
Thursday, November 12 2009, 4:33PM
“:( Wherever Colin; it's all the same to me. . it is getting a bit late for me.”
by Colin McNamee, Somerset
Thursday, November 12 2009, 4:24PM
“Or in Brussels? :-(”
by Charles Henry 1945-(diuturnity), Somersetshire
Thursday, November 12 2009, 2:30PM
“:| Adolf Hitler destroyed German democracy and seized total control and power after the Reichstag adopted the Enabling Act of 1933. .
The SELF-AMENDING Lisbon Treaty is the EU's Enabling Act.
As Colin states; it means that the EU will in future amend any part without the need to refer to any of the electorates in the member states by referendum.
Does anyone really believe the European Parliament in Strasbourg is democratic?”
by Charles Henry 1945-(diuturnity), Somersetshire
Thursday, November 12 2009, 1:49PM
“:| Don't worry Colin; if there's one thing I am SURE about, it is that the Liberal-Democrats will be buried at the next general election; particularly here in the South West. . And it's about time too. . They are just as shifty and deceitful as the EU itself, (note how they are now trying to manoeuvre over Afghanistan; exploiting the disquiet over the number of our soldiers deaths.) which is why they defend the EU's moral deficits so vigorously. . . . I looked this up again on my website the other day.
"On 5th. June 2008 Conservative leader David Cameron addressed a public meeting in Harlow Essex.
He admitted he may never be able to fulfil his promise of a referendum on Europe.
The Tory leader warned Labour could have signed away power to Brussels BEFORE he gets into 10 Downing Street. . He says, ¿It would then be too late to throw the changes into reverse.". . . .
I then asked the question:-
"IS IT NOW THE TIME; PARTICULARLY FOR THOSE WHO WOULD NORMALLY SUPPORT GORDON BROWN, TO SUPPORT U.K.I.P.?"
NOW CLEARLY IT IS.”
by Colin McNamee, Somerset
Thursday, November 12 2009, 12:09AM
“My posts are factual, whether or not you like them. Also checkable. try Googling Keith Vaz & Beano, there is no probable about it.
From your comments/opinion, not facts, you certainly do not accept, or be aware of, or couldn't care less about the lack of democracy involved in the implementation of the Lisbon Treaty.
Regardless of whether or not you have bothered to find out more about it, one way or another.
Some do.
The voting behaviour of the Liberal Democrat Party, under Clegg's direction, on the Lisbon Treaty was despicable. Hopefully the electorate will continue to made aware of the facts coming up to the next General Election.”
by Will, Mid Devon
Wednesday, November 11 2009, 9:39PM
“Colin - I didn't say I knew anything about the Lisbon Treaty in particular- in fact I made it plain I haven't read it or even a synopsis. But in answer to your question about which parts of your post I would refute, firstly I would refute your implication that if we were indeed taken into the EEC and kept in the EU by deceit that this must necessarily mean that our membership is not a good thing. I think it is also arguable that our entry and staying there was brought about by deceit, but I will let this go.
I would not refute your quote from Keith Vaz - he may well have said that, and if he did he may well have been referring to the fact that the influence on British law - specifically - is miniscule compared to the Maastricht Treaty, as I said.
I also dispute that I was not being civil! I don't find your tone particularly civil, but my point was that it is better to have a discussion based upon facts than jibes.
The reason why I don't get too exercised by matters relating to the EU is that I believe that we and Europe as a whole derive great benefit from the political unity it represents, apart from the economic advantages. People often forget that we have as much say as any other member state - more than some in fact - as to what happens within the EU. The impression one gets from many commentators is that we have absolutely no say at all and that our membership is akin to being ruled by a foreign power. I see it much more as membership of a club that is highly beneficial for Europe as whole. The rules of the club may not be to our particular liking and we should do all we can to change them if we believe that they put us at an unfair advantage compared to other members, but leaving the club would be worse on balance than staying in it.
If we were to hold a referendum on our membership - not on the Lisbon Treaty which in any case is too late and not really what Euro-skeptics would actually be voting on - then it would have to be preceded by honest and balanced discussion about the arguments for and against our membership. This would be very difficult at the moment because of the general level of ignorance about the EU, but I think it is about time we had this discussion (when I say "we" I don't mean we on the WMN site!). If it takes the prospect of a referendum to bring this about then I would be in favour of one, but I would prefer a proper debate - probably televised, and probably in the form of a short series of debates - before a referendum is scheduled.
It seems to me that the current level of debate on the subject is not much better than the exchange of jibes and cliches that we get on this site.
Yours in civility -”
by Colin McNamee, Somerset
Wednesday, November 11 2009, 8:08PM
“The Lisbon Treaty is a self amending treaty.
Know what that means Will?
It means that the EU will in future amend any part without the need to refer to any of the electorates in the member states by referendum.
Knew that as well did you Will?
It is the most undemocratic piece of legislation yet to be foisted onto the UK electorate.”
by Colin McNamee, Somerset
Wednesday, November 11 2009, 8:04PM
“Will,
My post was factual.
Which part do you wish to refute?
I did read all of the Maastritcht Treaty but only a synopsis of Libon.
Here's something for you Will
The Lisbon Treaty replaces the phrase ¿economic and social cohesion¿ in the EU Constitution with the phrase ¿economic, social and territorial cohesion¿ (Amendment to Article 158). What do you suppose that means?
Try and be civil.”