“Oh look, comment can be voted good or bad now!

This should be interesting...”

“Sorry, I mean metal... it's late”

“Once again, I agree, it's a cross-class problem, not confined to the underclass. We agree.

The post-war settlement and its institutional structures still largely defines how social policy is implemented in the UK. But this was drawn up in an era of full-employment over 60 years ago. Because none of our industrious politicians appear to have the mettle to challenge the cultural manifestations of past policies and continue to wind everyone up by constantly looking for scapegoats - the banks, the feckless unemployed and their unruly kids, immigrant workers, to which we presumably must now add sociology graduates who try to tell us the unpalatable truth - we seem destined to keep going round in circles.

Of course, it's bad parenting. But imagine yourself in the position of a single parent on welfare who is desperate to maintain some level of influence or control over a child who is being taught to look down on you and, more importantly, never to aspire to be anything like you by their peers. It may seem sad and pathetic to 'want to be their children's friend', but given the choices open to them, it's often all they have to cling onto, sadly.

Mind you, I have observed plenty of the other kind of parental 'tough love' where children from poorer and wealthier families are denied any kind of affection or creative down time and turn out to be proper little thugs and bullies.

It's obviously a debate that could run on and on. But I've tried to find common ground between us and explain where I'm coming from. Social policy degrees have to count for something, surely? Unfortunately, Torbay suffers from a philistine approach to most things on the whole. I only wish it could do better...”

“We had a young lad called smithy or jonesy or somart. He used to worry the sheep something rotten he did with his unusual ways and habits until we stuck im in field dressed as a girl and tied to tractor wheel, after a week of that he didn't worry the sheep no more.”

“****So, you see, many of these children develop a negative self-perception of themselves and their parents that is institutionally defined from an early age. Is it any surprise that boys disrespect their parents when they are treated with contempt by the rest of the community for not having a job? Parental esteem plays a huge part in one's ability to instill discipline in the home, particularly when that vital respect is instrumentally undermined.*****

So we've now gone full circle, from the unemployed where we started, via two income middle class families, up to company directors, and now back to the unemployed again.

You're completely wrong. This has nothing to do with "social policies" or any of your other sociology claptrap. It's bad parenting and it's evident across all social "classes", because it has nothing to do with social "class".

Please forget the pseudo-social posturing and employ a little common sense. Bad parenting is bad parenting. People wanting to be their children's friend more than it's parent, being afraid to "fall out" with their child if they tell it off, having children as "trophies", that's the issue.”

“Actually, it's been in my daily lexicon for decades, Isolde. I don't disagree with your point that some children have been badly neglected by their parents and not nurtured well. But this often reflects a wider social neglect which is heavily influenced by current socio-economic policies.

I don't wish to fall out with you and Smarty about this because I think you are both genuine in your efforts to find an intelligent solution to Torbay's problems. OK, my remark about company directors may have been a cheap shot, although there are some who are probably just as cruel and mendacious in their manipulation of their kids as they are with their staff.
But I don't think it's helpful to turn this into a class war because it diverts attention away from the real problem - our institutional malaise - and merely ensures that we turn on one another rather than laying responsibility with those directing and implementing policies.

What we all have to realise is that social policies have 'real life' consequences for some while privileging others. This can effect people of all classes and backgrounds. If my father had lost his job in the 1960s or 70s due to ill-health dismissal, I am certain that my entire life's journey would have been very different. I might not have got the GCSE grades I did. I might have been diagnosed with behavioural issues as a child. Who knows? I might have even been excluded from school? I most definitely would not have got a job in The City and might never have gained the self-confidence and sense of self-worth that is still largely exclusive to white collar workers. There are all manner of factors determining whether we succeed or fall by the wayside under this kind of socio-economic system. Surely, most people know that's true in their heart of hearts?

What I do know is that those who grow up in families on welfare are subjected to far more scrutiny in their daily lives than people in work. So, you see, many of these children develop a negative self-perception of themselves and their parents that is institutionally defined from an early age. Is it any surprise that boys disrespect their parents when they are treated with contempt by the rest of the community for not having a job? Parental esteem plays a huge part in one's ability to instill discipline in the home, particularly when that vital respect is instrumentally undermined.

Look, I haven't got all day, but all I'm trying to say is that there are structural failings that underpin bad behaviour in the home, and these are generally overlooked in discussions of this kind, which is a pity really. Although, I have to admit, I never fully appreciated this myself, let alone knew how to articulate such complexities before I did a social policy degree. But that's not to detract from anything anyone else is saying, you understand. It's just a different perspective on things...”

“So far from Karen the Tinbird we've had:


****Umm, company directors often make the worst kind of parent****

****The point I was making is that it's only a relatively recent development, and therefore must obviously be linked to the socio-economic policies of the past 30 years and the loss of traditional working class jobs in the service sector to two-income, middle-classed families. ****

****Children misbehave because their parents are marginalised and looked down on for not having jobs and tend to become the focus of everyone's contempt****

So to be clear. It's company directors that are most at fault. Or it's the fault of two income middle class families. Or it's definitely the fault of disadvantaged unemployed families.

Or to put it another way, you've got no idea what you're talking about.

Looking forward to "the book"!”

“I'm glad you have learnt a new word Karen, but badly behaved kids who have never been taught how to behave by their parents is hardly Munchausen Syndrome by proxy. It is just (and always has been) badly behaved kids who have never been taught how to behave by their parents.”

“It's Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy. Apologies.”

“Umm, company directors often make the worst kind of parent, I agree. Obviously, there are always going to be the odd exceptions. We should be doing far more research into Muncheon Syndrome by Proxy, which sounds like what you are describing, Smarty. A lot of women still smother and 'project' their own emotional insecurities - or feebleness - onto their children. It happens on a wider scale in local communities too - hence the tendency to treat people for mental health problems they don't have to appease those with acute personal inadequacies of their own. I agree, these are all serious cultural issues we need to address in future. But that requires a much higher level of sophistication from our police and local service providers.

It is an established fact that few responsible paediatricians would disagree with that the majority of children diagnosed with ADHD come from disadvantaged homes. Given the extreme polarity in incomes and educational standards in Torbay, that should come as no surprise, surely?

No-one's disputing that there is a visibly higher proportion of troubled families these days. The point I was making is that it's only a relatively recent development, and therefore must obviously be linked to the socio-economic policies of the past 30 years and the loss of traditional working class jobs in the service sector to two-income, middle-classed families. We need to look at the cause and effect if we're going to move forward...”